BELGIAN PROOF MARKSPROOF MARKS: BELGIAN PROOF MARKS, . Since 1924 used on all rifled arms. Side by side shotguns of this era are highly collectable and our inventory changes frequently. Beretta, a maker of handguns and shotguns, has hired an Elvis Presley impersonator for live events. or E.C. (Six volumes by alphabetical order), Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1. These firearms Broqua & Scholberg 1893 - 1924 1930 - present CH B RAYE 15 Designates 4th or nitro proof; the mark contains the name of the powder in abbreviated form ( Schultze, E.C.) Those are about the only other possible sources of information, and probably won't narrow it down much more than what we know: second half of the 19th century, but before 1892.Best,GerryBest. Proof Marks or listed in alphabetical order. A "Greener" double? Belgian Liege gunmakers Stevans): cant verify it is Maj. Doan, but on his hip is a pistol, which looks alike a 7 in. Some older foreign Forum, http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies d/a delcour dupont gb.htm, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_Trade_Marks.html. - Galoppin Chartier so that means it is for sure a 12 gauge? The IZh motorcycles and automobiles are manufactured by. Spesco was based in Atlanta, GA, and imported a variety of reproduction and modern guns in the 1960's and 70's.It would be a good idea to check that the rifle is unloaded. individual armorers and inspectors used their own unique stamps in some they were made + or - 1900 to 1930's. A.H. Fox guns came in 12-gauge, 16-gauge, and 20-gauge. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Ray D, STOGERS, advertised them as being made for the AFRICAN tribes to hunt with because with them they would not be able to rebel against the BELGIAN rulers who had modern arms. Hand Guns 8 Rifles-Shotguns 2 . BELGIAN MADE, 12 GAUGE, BOXLOCK EJECTOR, 32" BARRELS, CHOKES MODIFIED & FULL, 2-3/4", BROADWAY RIB, GOLD WASHED SINGLE SELECTIVE INERTIA TRIGGER, NON-AUTOMATIC SAFETY, PISTOL GRIP, .Click for more info Seller: Country Pursuits Area Code: 718 $3,895.00 ROYAL GUN, BELGIUM SXS 12GA, GI#: 102149842 Cap Joseph [Later note: Gerhard Wirnsberger has written. Is there a stamp of LLH on the tubes forward of the flats? I can't ID the 'RM', who was likely the barrel maker. Until 1894, stamped in .02mm graduations, then in 0.1mm steps, Degree of choke, in this case 0.7mm constriction. On barrels of breechloading shotguns after final black powder proof. manufactured firearms, such as pistols from Spain and Italy, will list a the examiner in determining the caliber designation of a military Sixteen-gauge guns generally fall somewhere in between. for exports be able towithstand a proscribed load without damage. U.S.A.Most pistols exported from the United States are not proof marked in their country of origin. Berleur Michel are cottage industry type weapons without a specific brand name. The earliest 3D-printed guns were crude single-shot devices. No maker's name at all. Do check with a gunsmith before you shoot it! In England, the second charter of the Gunmakers' Company granted in 1672 marked the beginning of the official proving of arms, but it did not apply to weapons made elsewhere in the Kingdom, provided they were not offered for sale in the London market. Serial Numbers. Carl, I've checked Wirnsberger's Standard Directory of Proof Marks as well as those listed at Cornell Publications, and came up empty handed. The standard proving of weapons rose out of the need for protection on the part of the public against unreliable weapons, and it was also a means of protecting the armourer guild and good craftsmen against outside competition with cheap imported arms. Do you have any information on them? Belgian proofs are among the oldest and have a very long history. Very long barrel. Greetings Easthampton,I have been researching an old antique pistol that has been in our family for generations.What leads me to your group was the Hits and Misses article posted in 2014; on Deciphering Belgian Proof Marks (my piece has the spelling Belgium). Closset J.M. The 1KG 545 is the barrel weight in grams. The British Sporting Gun and Rifle: Pursuit of Perfection 1850-1900. Their cipher or mark was the letters G.P. Thank you Jerry. Entries are listed by initial year of service descending, then grouped by designation (A-to-Z) to better showcase a given country's evolution in the field of infantry arms. Collard Henri - Roux Jacques Based only on the pictures, those barrels do not appear to be Damascus. ]v8 >ZX 2Fu}) )t/!Z $e9]DG=Ljr%@6) 8F&Kx[2l~WY7#|9&~L~G3jjV?~2SN?2&=qb'3d0W>l#G2;/|D)c~liS>2lVbD""L0M7;Q"gd)g"G{\3efBd. since 1929 Eibar admission proof for guns with old marks since 1929 Eibar proof used in . . CLEMENT, J. There are a number of outlawman7 - The reason for a lack of response here may be found in the post immediately above yours. is 1.220 kg (43.00 oz). Colleye Henri Joseph Is there a 70mm stamp on the extractor blade faces? Judging by the comments that appeared when I Googled "spesco corporation," your guess is on target. to share our findings by this means of communication. this book online and pay it through Paypal. We provide antique gun prices and pictures of each antique firearm we sell. Can you pleasure us with a pic of the side view of the tubeset top rib extension to accept the Greener crossbolt? Mark for voluntary treble temporary or provisional proof on unfinished barrels, Mark for voluntary double temporary or provisional proof on unfinished barrels. Coleye M. N. time, therefore assisting in dating the arm. date, serial number and property marks as well as various acceptance and Applied to all gun not made in Belgium but proofed in Belgium. Comblain The slot for the pin had to be welded up and a firing pin installed.I dont know when pin-fire cartridges ceased being manufactured, but Id guess they were still available until the early twentieth century. Or any info? These These two, and sometimes the makers private mark, may be found on many old weapons. cases. Second Variation serial numbers 707517-851751 (7,000 produced) - 708921. These marks have all the characteristic appearance of a rectangle, with a small blob at the top rather like a tied up sack of corn. Long Beach, CA: Safari Press, 2000. Each new gun is presented in a best oak and leather case complete with canvas outer and a full complement of accessories. Inspector's marks can not be used to establish date of manufacture; they were re-used over time and the significance of some has been lost. Counet Philippe When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Bayet Frres ~JP2lLn)wMO(;%vvRnS>2sw~zG!D""L0MW#+J%d)g"#Q4H&D4&KdU_};g|CN>Is>X&'vqFc&Pkr3EjZ1M&|dv55*6GI?/cOra#2K;cW>rLFtgtycw^4RiK-myVS[${XZw ho"=^f%DeiG wPnD6#diqSg].GI24?>.0 ?~wXy$6Sd3Ln2IdLL_#6)G7OE)7igF. There is a lot of glare in the photo of the barrels' "water table" The left (right as viewed upside down, and likely the tighter choked) barrel seems to read "18.4 (bore size in mm) choke 18.2". Breechloaders had existed previously, but Casimir Lefaucheux's 1835 invention of the pin-fire cartridgea cylinder with a pin extending at right angles to the base which detonated a fulminate charge in the cartridgequickly led to better breechloading systems and to the development first of rimfire and then of centerfire cartridges. Information, NRA Markus, clearly your gun is from 1943, but look, you have used a 2011 old post. If you are interested in import, export, or wholesale purchase of shotguns, theres no better place than AmmoTerra to find a buyer or supplier of military equipment. The one on the far right is the definite proof for nitro, or smokeless powder. The first type of testing we will study is the Proof Test. that we have found on this subject. The famous "hump back" was made in countless configurations and gauges. It is a 12 gauge with 70mm = 2 3/4" chambers. The system of proof in Great Britain was as follows: In England, the second charter of the Gunmakers Company granted in 1672 marked the beginning of the official proving of arms, but it did not apply to weapons made elsewhere in the Kingdom, provided they were not offered for sale in the London market. Measuring the bore diameter and chamber Sounds like a 19th C. Belgian pinfire shotgun (grin). below are samples of Proof Marks of different countries. Liege, in Belgium, has always been celebrated for its weapons, and established its proof house as a municipal enterprise on May 10, 1672, when it was laid down that barrels should be marked with the stamp of the city, and unproved weapons might not be sold under pain of a fine of a gold florin and the confiscation of the unproved barrel. The 12.65 I take to mean 12 gauge with 2 1/2" chambers (70 would be the modern 2 3/4"). Oftentimes it makes no sense to let go of the past, particularly since shotguns from higher-quality Damascus steel are as shootable today as they were 150-plus years ago. [more like this] Belgian Flobert Style Warnant 8mm Parlor. Originally evolved by the armourers themselves, the system of proof was in nearly every arms-producing country taken over by the Municipality or the State, who imposed a series of stringent by-laws and penalties on any who sought to evade the prescribed tests. How does it open? Belgian Arms cie These marks are the Belgian Lion rampant over the letters S.C.H. Proof marks are the official stamps or ciphers showing that a barrel has been properly tested with the prescribed excess charges of powder and ball that allow a large factor of safety to the user. Choke constriction, together with barrel dimension this can give a brief view of the choke. Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, Brandon, but I've been out of the country w/o internet access. Ancion Jacques & Cie Christophe Henri Also on the chamber there are three marks, one which I have not been able to identify, but appears to be provisional proof? rifle,over a 12 ga. shotgun. manufacturers identifying marks, more commonly referred to as Proof Marks, Arsenal or Inspector Marks Gun Barrel Proof Marks. If 'JF' it could be Janssen Fils or Frres. The first cipher is the crossed branches surmounted by a crown, and with a cross or star in the three other angles. Don't know about the Star P. And I don't ever evaluate guns. Home | Login | Register. Hand Guns 5 Rifles-Shotguns 1 . and an eagles head. Bodson N. Ad Categories: Pre-1840. will normally provide the information needed to make a caliber Other makers include Lebeau Courally and Mahillon. As mentioned, Damascus barrels were made from strips of iron and steel wrapped around a mandrel in "barber pole" fashion, and the spriral pattern can usually be seen clearly. Do check with a gunsmith before you shoot it! presented below is the first of the series and is covering the gunmakers whose names are Now, at age 63, Jensen has reached the stage in life where he's ready to start letting go of his collection. The 1136 is engraved on the bottom of the barrel. The Other than the diameter stamp, I don't see a 70mm stamp. If there is no Lion over PV, the gun was NOT proved for smokeless powder. Each gun maker is presented with the maximum of data available and a wealth of color pictures about the most . . Thanks. Again, thank you I'll test it very cautiously. Any info will help. Bonzon & Arents & Cie If I was asked for a guess for a dollar I would say mid 1930's. The book presented below is the second of the series and is covering the gun makers whose names are in the D to F range of the alphabetical order. Between 1847-1952 the stamp with the letter F-J C was used in the same purpose. On top between the barrels "CANONS ACIER GARANTI". + 10-14% by piezoelectric transducer measurement. Austrian arms were marked with the double eagle, and later with the letters Wn 78; a variety of private marks of manufacturers are also in use. Bettonville - Fontaine interlaced, and surmounted by a crown. and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive Beuret Frres Bronne Gustave Thank y'all again! Introduced to designate arms proved in conformity of German Proof Law of 1891. Further changes were initiated, when smokeless powder necessitated more stringent conditions of proof. determination. It means it's a 12 gauge that has been proofed with black powder. Clement, Charles Pistol and revolver manufacturer in Liege, Belgium, c.1886-1914. Smith & Wesson markets gun accessories, handcuffs, safes, apparel, watches, collectibles, knives, tools, air guns, and myriad other products under its brand name, including cologne, handbags, and washing machines. Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! Please note! insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of Purchased by Val Forgett of Navy Arms in 1978. I have pictures If you need them. L. L. Hepburn percussion combination rifle, .36 cal. Have had this gun in family for as far as i remember at least 40 years. The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? What I know so far is: 1924 is a bit late for Damascus barrels. typically do not have a caliber designation; symbols and codes are used Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! All 24 Shotguns made in Belgium, Belgian made Shotguns from manufacturers.name.include? Ancion DD & Fils This printed and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of the 20th century. Dear Shamsher, I can't help much without sharp photos, but it appears your gun is Belgian, made in Liege, no earlier than 1893. Fakes and fraudulentmakers' marksare not a recent invention--note what William Greener said in 1835 (seemy earlier post of April 20, 2014). There is no doubt that this system contributed much to the good report in which properly proved arms were held, and laid the foundation of much export trade. %PDF-1.3 14 Designates guns with rifled chokes. (most sales were in the 1930s). thank you. The Belgian gun industry in Liege produced flintlock muskets for their African colonies until the mid-1950s. for your continued support, encouragement and admonishment. The "1136" might be the serial number for that pair of pistols. I have not been able to locate an authoritative resource Condition Grading Definitions For Antique Firearms, This website may not Listing of small arms appearing from 1800 to 1899. I doubt pictures will help in this case, but I'm happy to look at them: send them to ghcox3@gmail.com. It has punched on one side of barrel 17.2, on the other side punched JC, EL ,pinfire symbol, K and crown on its top, E LG little crown under them in oval.Please help me to get the closest identification for this nice firearm. Burlet Shooting Made in the USA: A List of where gun makers manufacture By Jim Harmer Updated on February 7, 2023 It's important to know where your firearms come from if you are a conscious consumer who wants to make sure your money is only going to places you support. Worldwide Logistics for all your products. There's no brand name on it (I've been p and down it 100 times) it does say laminated barrel and that's it. Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! Scroll through our inventory of antique pistols and handguns from our cartridge pistols and revolvers category below. Bernard Alphonse My best guess is that it's a maker's mark, but of course I could be wrong. Rich engraved. Antique Shotguns (Pre-1899): Belgian Shotguns, Side by Side Shotguns Our inventory of antique shotguns is made up of shotguns manufactured before 1899, including English, French, and Belgian shotguns. Needless to say, I bought the gunand it will never be for sale as long as I am alive. The words are French: "canons" meaning gun barrels, "acier," steel, and "garanti" meaning guaranteed or warranted: "Barrels warranted steel. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Search. Belgium Belgian Proofmarks Belgian proofs are among the oldest and have a very long history. These might cursive as well. Please someone let me know that they know about these Belgian doubles! Post request for quotation and get multiple offers from manufacturers, 155MM HE 107 Full Zone 8 Charge with Electronic Fuze, Large quantity of surplus guns and exotic guns, BA 312 Semi-Auto Magazine Tube Tactical Shotgun, BA 912 Bullpup Mag-Fed Semi-Auto (2 Different Mold), BA 912 Special Cerakote Bullpup Mag-Fed Semi-Auto Shotgun. OldGuns Newsletter . Braekers Charles & Cie As I've said, I'm not an expert. have a great day! Flintlock fowling pieces and rifles were made for the Northwest Indian trade until the early twentieth century; so, too, percussion long guns for sale in Africa. 1870-1898. Prices: side-by-side, from 53,000 + VAT; over-and-under, from 65,000 + VAT. Their proof marks are two feathers, or curved branches, crossed with letters in the angles of the cross so formed. JavaScript is disabled. Without a photo, I can't add anything to what you already know: it's a handgun made in Belgium. This devotion to Americana papers over the foreign status of all three gun companies: Glock. Shotguns became popular after the U.S. Army used them during the First World War while close-range fighting in trenches. Navigation (GPS, altimetres, compasses, maps), Immediate shipping on a all products listed. Length of chamber over diameter of chamber. Hi, your shotgun was made after 1924 due to the Perron-Liege proof marks. Very helpfull once again. I have got a 19th century belgian double barrel pin fire shoutgun with walnut stock(116cm). See Kennett's # 2 and # 9 above. We have just started to assemble this on going source of Proof No maker's name anywhere? Sorry I can't be more helpful. arsenal marks, you will find other marks or stampings. Paypal, Order I found a couple on this site and also nramuseum.com leading me to believe its a British or Belgian gun. Greetings Easthampton again, I have since, researched:The officers of the 105th Ohio were issued the 38-40 44. I'll restrict myself therefore tosaying something about gun making in Belgium and offering some proof marks. visiting our on-line listing of manufacturers identifying marks, Saillevillean E. reversed set in a square stamp (as shown below). Drue, yes, the absence of rifling means that this pin-fire was used for shot.Pin-fires represent an important stage in the development of firearms. HI, John. What about a lightning bolt with a star above? LLH (and other Belgian makers) made the tubes used by most of the U.S. double gun makers 1920s-1940s, with Siemens-Martin or Krupp (by license) steel supplied by Cockerill. The drawings vary in style due to differences in the original information.Most are black silhouettes, but some of those that have been produced from photographs have a quasi 3 dimensional appearance that requires the onlooker . Ancion Marx Ad Categories: Pre-1840. Then emigrated to Belgium at the end of 1859. Volunteer arms co. on October 29, 2020: 16 gauge serial number is 90524xe what would it be worth and how old is it. Home | Login | Register. One issue of this collection for the year 1910, which I found in the US Library of Congress, contains a curious case which throws some light on how some Belgian gun manufacturers actually operated. Bernard Emile & Cie Some sharp photos might help; send them to (ghcox3@gmail.com). Belgian Shotgun Identification The Banc d'Epreuves de Liege proved 233,526 double barrel smoothbore guns in 1889, the majority for export. It is located just above the circle with ELG. Knowledge of commonly used military ammunition assists How do I price this piece? One of the lesser known of the Belgian handgun makers was Jean Warnant but he was a creative designer and the British Thornton's Patent for a double action revolver lock work was actually originally his idea for which he applied for a patent in Belgium in 1874 and that patent was granted in 1875. Brancquaert Louis However, there are more proof marks that I cannot find on the internet. I'm a ypunger collector/gun activist. Marks, Arsenal & Inspector Marks, Manufacturers You can tell an unaltered pin-fire by the vertical slot in the breech extending to the top of the barrel (and, of course, the absence of a firing pin). Behr Jean jacques Bernard Victor & Cie M Mecar (4 P) Pages in category "Firearm manufacturers of Belgium" I have a Belgium 38-40 with a 7 in barrel all matching. into which each separate book is dealing with a small portion of the whole, and that is Subcategories This category has only the following subcategory. Boden Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1 By Alain Daubresse This printed and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of the 20th century. Can be without star and ring. Some proved pieces exist, and are marked in the case of revolvers with the letters U.S., in the case of other arms with the letters V.P. Nessonvaux is short drive outside of Liege. Maximum service load for shotguns having undergone smokeless proof. Last edited on 20 February 2023, at 21:10, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_firearm_brands&oldid=1140599647, Air defense equipment, artillery, munitions, explosives, ED devices, industrial machinery, Ammunition, Suppressors, Outdoor products, Clothing, Civilian, law enforcement, military, security, Suppressors, rails/handguards, accessories, ammunition, clothing. Once tested and successful the weapon was stamped with a seal to I'm very excited about this gun because I think the serial number is 106. Under their charter the Gunmakers Company had powers to prove and mark all manner of hand guns, daggs, and pistols, and every part thereof, whether made in London or in the suburbs, or within ten miles thereof, or brought thither for sale, or imported for foreign parts. A strong good product that will last for long usage in your The fifth a crown, with three crossed spikes set over a capital E. Other French towns had their special marks, such as IMPORTANT NOTE! In the Proof Marks; my piece has a Star P, which in the article you do not identify. Very little: I'm assuming it isn't a muzzleloader but a breechloader, which means it could be as early as 1860-1865, say. 1860-1870. There's no indication of gauge. Introduced for handguns in 1894, rifles over 8mm in 1897. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
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